perkins A4-212 timing

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tedrick
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perkins A4-212 timing

Post #1 by tedrick » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:21 am

Hi i am having trouble to start my massey ferg 50A backhoe ,with perkins A4-212 engine ,had motor stripped and i put it back with cam line marked to idler took no 1 inj out got compression stroke went to fly wheel got it on TDC ,so the 2 dots on crank gear line with idler set inj pump with lines on idler put new filters in ,connected electric fuel pump bled pump ,cracked injector pipes until fuel come out checked that stop lever was on off and throttle was half down but wont even attempt to start ,if i spray starting fluid into manifold it will go and keep running as long as you spray ,i did get it to run once without spray but it stopped when i tried to idle it the pump is after market bepco and only done about 30 hours ,i also tried putting pressure on no 1 pipe on injector and turned it until it locked to make sure i was on no one was wondering where the C inside injector pump should line up Cheers Ted
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Re: perkins A4-212 timing

Post #2 by Jeremy Rowland » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:34 am

Hi Ted and welcome to the site :wave: From your photos I cannot see the timing marks but I suspect that they are correct and the problem appears to be either fuel or another issue. How much of the engine did you strip down and what did you find wrong with it? My best guess is that there is a problem with the DPA fuel injection pump.

Jeremy


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Re: perkins A4-212 timing

Post #3 by tedrick » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:34 am

Hi Jeremy thanks for that motor was left in tractor and new liners,valves pistons and rings installed ,injectors sent out and overhauled gears were taken off and checked for cracks ,the injector pump is a new bepco pump ,done about 20 hours i am using a normal after market electric fuel pump to bypass manual tractor pump as it is easier to bleed system the one thing that did come into mind is that the inj pump wheel has a 1 then dot and 2 but i did try both so that is why i was wondering what letter inside the inj pump should line up to ,from a manual on net it said circlip but there isnt one on this pump Cheers Ted
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Re: perkins A4-212 timing

Post #4 by Jeremy Rowland » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:24 am

Ted from what you say it could be the injection pump timing unfortunately I have never timed one of these pumps Fred Evans (Fowlerman) may be able to offer you some advice on that; one last thing I would try as you said the engine had run for a short time which makes me question the pump timing, have you tried to run the engine off a gravity feed for the fuel, is the electric fuel pump good enough to deliver the fuel required? :think:

Jeremy


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Re: perkins A4-212 timing

Post #5 by essexpete » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:08 pm

If Fred cannot help try this:

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php ... machinery/

You would have to register and log in but there is a huge wealth of tractor info there, particularly on the classic section. was quite common as it was used in the MF165 i believe.


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Re: perkins A4-212 timing

Post #6 by tedrick » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:54 pm

Hi Jeremy thanks for that i was using a car electric pump,fairly good pressure at inj pump and i get about half inch spurt at inj with pipe undone but like you said it has to do with pump timing and i still think it has to go by reading inside on the pump rotor thanks again Cheers Ted


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Re: perkins A4-212 timing

Post #7 by tedrick » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:56 pm

Hi Essexpete thanks i will try that Cheers Ted

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Re: perkins A4-212 timing

Post #8 by FOWLER MAN » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:52 pm

Hello Ted,
I haven't been on here for a while and I have just noticed this thread.
I can probably help you but I am on my way out to a meeting this evening so it will have to wait till tomorrow.
I know more about engines than IT so I can't give you a link here but if you go to search and type in " Timing a CAV DPA pump" and put in "Fowler Man" as the author it should take you to something I posted previously.
It won't be specific to your engine and I know some A212 engines have no point of injection marks on flywheel or crank pulley which presents a problem, but that can be sorted.
Back on tomorrow :thumbup:
Fred

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Re: perkins A4-212 timing

Post #9 by FOWLER MAN » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:25 pm

Hi,
Timing should be straight forward enough.
I see you chalk marked the timing gears to be able to relocate them. :think:
I think I would have started from scratch, removed the idler gear , lined up the TDC 1/4 mark on the flywheel or just turn the key in the crank shaft gear to the top. Then refitted the idler, at the same time turning the cam and pump gears to match the original timing marks. That should then be TDC on one and four with the two valves on four rocking from one to the other and No. 1 firing. :thumbup:

If you are refitting all the original components the Master spline in the quill shaft which drives the pump should locate correctly and it should be sufficient to simply line up the mark on the pump flange with the mark on the timing case. :thumbup:

You could have established which cylinder was injecting quite easily without pressurising the line because the master, (large), spline on the quill shaft always lines up with the injector pipe which is delivering fuel. :think:

It should only be necessary to retime the pump internally if fitting a new one or one from another engine as each pump and engine are a matched pair. New pumps don't have the timing mark on the pump flange and it may be necessary to make a new mark when swapping from another engine. :think:

The static pump timing is set at point of injection which is usually somewhere about 22 to 24 deg. before TDC if there is not a flywheel mark INJ 1/4 or other locator to establish this point it becomes a little more difficult. :roll:

Perkins recommend turning the engine to TDC 1 removing the collets from the inlet valve and allowing it drop onto the piston crown.
and to set up a dial gauge on the top of the valve stem, then to rock the engine to zero the gauge at TDC.
There is a table of distances below TDC which relates to deg. before TDC.
Typically on your engine at 22 to 24 deg. :?: before TDC, point of injection would be 4 to 6 mm below TDC :?: The required setting is determined by the number on the injector pump ID plate where it says Type. :dizzy:

When point of injection is established, (Hopefully there will be a mark), we come to the internal pump timing.
I have no experience with Bepco after market pumps, and can't understand how there can be no timing circlip. :?: :?

Normal procedure is to loosen the three bolts holding the pump body to the timing case, remove the small plate from the side of the pump to view the rotor , turn the body till, ( in this case), the letter C lines up with the square end of the circip. Some pumps have a line on the circlip to line up with instead of the square end. Then make your new timing,(chisel), mark on the pump flange. :thumbup:

If there is no circlip I don't know how you get round it except with the proper service tool and injector test pump to create a hydraulic lock and establish the timing mark on the pump flange.
You probably know most of this already but I hope you can pick something out of it which helps.
Good luck.

Fred


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Re: perkins A4-212 timing

Post #10 by Whitlock 505 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:48 pm

Is it me or do the splines on the crankshaft internal gear look flattish? The one with the socket on? Could it be they are worn and not meshing properly or slipping?

Ian


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