International B-414

[FOWLER MAN]

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Hi Joe; first you need to establish the cause of the knock to make sure that it is not 'diesel knock' then once you are sure that the engine knocking is mechanical you need to remove the heads and the pistons, you will have your answer then. Before ripping the lump apart check that you have a good clean fuel supply to the fuel injection pump, use a temporary fuel supply if need be. Best of luck let us know how you get on.

Jeremy[/quote]

Hi Joe,
As Jeremy says.
But be aware that these engines have indirect fuel injection. This produces a very rattley sounding top end and doesn't make them the easiest to start.
If the injection timing is just a little advanced it will add to the rattle and the starting difficulty.

A deisel knock should go away when you open the offending injector pipe.

What's the oil pressure like If it's OK its not likely to be a bearing problem. You may want to split the oil filter open and look for traces of bearing meatal in there

The engine is a B154 and I haven't rebuilt one since the 1960s that was in a B85 Drott, (same engine). I can't remember too much detail now but it was done on site over a weekend.
There was no problem removing and replacing the liners with a simple home made screw puller, and the liners certainly don't require machining or honing.

The other possibility is that the engine has over heated and suffered a partial seizure.
If so, and you find stuck or broken rings it may well only affect one bore. In my experience, if the liners are not too badly worn or scored, you may get away with honing the bores and a set of rings. If cost is a considderation you may be able to do that, save the liners, and just change one or two offending pistons if required.
I got away with doing just that on the Fowler I restored, (see Challenger Project (page2) in "Projects").
Fred

[smokin' joe]

cheers guys, have some ammunition for when i am back down there. the B414 is on a block of land i am developing 4hrs away !!

i did wonder if injector timing could be an issue with the slow starting, and will try all your suggestions regarding the 'knock', but it does sound far too savage to be minor (i hope i am wrong!!)

auction for it sale closes tonite, so if i still own it, i better get some gear organised for testing/elimination purposes.

[jackherrycarscallen@gmail.com]

I have poured over this thread, and there is a LOT of good stuff here - I am so very grateful for the workshop manual covering the b414 Diesel I have. It's a great tractor and I am thankful of having it on my small farm for many jobs.

I have a clutch question.

I suspect the clutch was worn out, because even with the pedal fully down there was a lot of grinding with gear changes and I don't think the PTO clutch was ever disengaged, so I tried to make some pedal adjustments. I put a shifter to the clutch cross shaft to turn the pedal around it and give me some more leverage. It seemed the pedal adjustment was already maxed out. Not knowing exactly what I was doing I must have turned the actual cross shaft itself and it gave way and turned readily after a brief moment of resistance.

My problem now: the clutch cross shaft will spin around and around - not freely, however it will keep spinning, suggesting the connection between the cross shaft and bearing mechanism has failed.

What are my options now? I have removed the bottom inspection window for the clutch cavity, and cannot see the top of the clutch shaft to inspect the linkage between the cross shaft and bearing. Can anyone who is familiar with these linkages and the 414's clutch setup give me a pointer on where I may have gone wrong and what my next step should be?

Any resources with diagrams (or pictures taken with the bottom clutch cavity plate removed!!!) would be great. Otherwise, I will try and follow your description best I can =)

I really want to get this old girl back into action - winter is coming in my part of the world and I expect to need her for a lot of fencing jobs and field work.

[hair bear]

Hi and welcome.
As you were already suspicious of the clutch wear and release, followed now by an unhappy crosshaft, splitting it is probably your only option. You could spend hours fiddling and faffing but in you heart you know what you have to do! When you have eveything where it can be inspected/repaired/replaced you can be sure that once it's back together it'll be good for a long time.
Good luck and keep us updated.

[fred stripper]

Hydraulic oil in top hole behind seat,doesn't hold a great amount only feeds hydraulic system.PTO is adjusted with traction clutch,free play depends on type, some crank rope seals leak into bell housing, poke hole underneath to drain,prevent oiling clutch plate.Cracking little tractor, have 434 and 444 at home,cheap to keep.

[jackherrycarscallen@gmail.com]

Hi and welcome.
As you were already suspicious of the clutch wear and release, followed now by an unhappy crosshaft, splitting it is probably your only option. You could spend hours fiddling and faffing but in you heart you know what you have to do! When you have eveything where it can be inspected/repaired/replaced you can be sure that once it's back together it'll be good for a long time.
Good luck and keep us updated.

Well, hair bear, here is the course of action I have taken.

I ended up having a tractor mechanic offer to come and take a quick look, confirm what I suspected and quote me on a repair. He identified a crack in the yoke, or fork assembly linking the cross shaft with the thrust bearing. He quoted $1500-2k to take the whole clutch assembly out and replace it. Man was I sore about having ever touched the thing when he started that sort of talk.

I got talking to my neighbour - not a tractor mechanic, just an alright bloke who wanted to see the best outcome for the people and machines around him - and he suggested we take a look at this fork with the crack. So we opened it up, took the cross shaft out and popped off the fork. Lo and behold: a giant crack running parralell with the cross shaft between the two fork branches. Looked like and old crack, which evidently I must have opened up further with my strong shifter arm. Found a new fork for $25, found some new bolts, turned the key around (the side that was sitting in the key-piece was beaten up and bevelled from yonkers wobbling around loose) and reassembled the lot. I now not only have the clutch back to where I left off - I actually have full clutch release AND can get the PTO clutch disengaged also.

Not a bad job at $25.

Goes to show what a bit of ingenuity can get you (and a bloody cluey neighbour who is happy to get up to the elbows in grease helping you out).

One question I have now is this: though I can get the full main clutch and the PTO clutch to disengage, the pedal action required to disengage that PTO clutch is monstrous, yes the splines are pretty dry (I have squirted a little CRC carefully down the splines), and from preliminary trials the clutch pedal will slip on the cross shaft when I action the PTO clutch a few times. My question: how tight can you go on those pinch bolts holding the clutch pedal on the cross shaft? there is no key holding it in place, so do I assume you just tighten the hell out of it (like really give it a big two arm wrench) with no fear of cracking the clutch pedal, or should I be careful and look at some other method. i.e. look at getting a key-way cut into the shaft where the clutch pedal sits, and putting a key in... or wetting it, weathering it and letting it rust up a bit before using the PTO clutch.

All in all, I can use the main clutch absolutely perfectly now, where before I had barely any main clutch and NO pto clutch action. So am more than happy to keep on and forget about the PTO clutch altogether. However you can't blame me for trying

Hope this post helps any other now or in the future with a similar problem. As you can imagine, I will be postponing that tractor split for a time when things get really, really dire.

Jack.

[Mrsmackpaul]

did you put some grease the splines ect when you were putting it back together CRC drys out fairly quick and has little lasting lubrication

good to hear its going a lot better

Paul

[hair bear]

Good to hear and well done, now get out there and enjoy it!
As far as tightening the pedal is concerned the answer is that I don't know. Sometimes when I've delt with similar issues I've found when the pedal is loose it wears the shaft and the clamp slightly, so it gets tightened and so on until the clamp fouls itself and can't be tightened without skimming a little out of the clamp face. I don't think it can be keyed because the adjustment relies on being able to turn the pedal on the shaft.
You could try 'roughing up' the faces with a coarse emery cloth so they bite up when tightened.
One thing I guarantee though, if you needed the bolt out and pedal off they'd be rusted solid!

[jackherrycarscallen@gmail.com]

Mrsmackpaul: I didn't actually have anything apart, so couldn't properly get to the splines of the clutch and crank shaft (is that where the matching splines are?) anyhow. We used the CRC because it was easy to spray up through the bottom window looking into the clutch housing, what with that handy little straw thing on the end of it. That and I guess thinking it was a bit rusty, thought perhaps the crc could free it enough that, with regular use, it won't stay rough and rusty instead smoothing up a little. I guess I could stick my finger up there and tickle a little proper grease onto the splined surface I can get to (not much, but a little) and hope it will work its way along the shaft over time. Do you reckon that'd be worth a shot?

Hair bear: Yep, you bet I will enjoy it. And you know what, I like the idea of roughening up the surface. Today I tightened it up a few times, just nipping it a little between short uses, and got some more without putting too much force into it (single handed without leaning or pushing off anything) and she is still holding, even with a couple of PTO clutch lifts, so perhaps it's just tight enough. But if it slips again I will loosen it off and try roughening things up (and actually, probably would be a good idea to put some petrol on the bit sticking outside to get the grease off it from when we slipped it through the bell housing...)

Thanks for your helpful suggestions you lot.

Jack.

[tbrowninav]

I have an international 3414 which I understand is the industrial version of the B-414. I have most of the manuals that I can find but can't seem to find one for the rear axle. I have a leaky axle seal on the right side that I need to replace but want to make sure that I don't do more harm than good trying to find my way through getting it apart. Any ideas on where I can get the info?