Winget PH1 starting problem

Discuss dumpers here

Topic author
willie.macleod
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:22 pm
Real name: Willie
Been thanked: 1 time

Winget PH1 starting problem

Post #1 by willie.macleod » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:00 am

Hi, I just bought an old Winget (2s?) dumper. It won't start for me, and as I'm not used to old hand cranked engines then maybe someone here would be kind enough to offer some advice! So far I have drained the fuel and put new diesel in, changed the fuel filter element, replaced the air filter and changed the oil. Fuel injection seems to be OK - the injector was tested on a diesel tester and when I prime it I can get a good spray out when I reconnect the pipe with the injector out of the engine as per the manual testing instructions. The engine turns over OK - I'm priming it was 6 pumps on the priming lever (and I'm hearing the injector creaking), turning it over as fast as I can then dropping the decompresser lever down. Once the decompresser lever is dropped I'll normally get a small puff of black smoke out and the engine will stop within about half a turn (so it would seem that it has reasonable compression?). Does anyone have any words of advice about what to look at next?


Jeremy Rowland
Moderator
Posts: 8667
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:36 pm
Real name: Jeremy Rowland
Has thanked: 1867 times
Been thanked: 1688 times

Re: Winget PH1 starting problem

Post #2 by Jeremy Rowland » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:02 pm

Hi Willie and welcome to CMN :wave:

Willie I think you are looking along the right lines here as you have positively checked out the fuel system and have a clean air supply, so if you have fuel and air getting to the engines cylinder that only indicate that you may have a compression problem (knackered rings or a poorly seating valve?).
I'm sorry that I cannot tell you the compression for your engine but a workshop manual or manufacturers instructions for the engine should give you a figure.
If you do test it and find its low I would take the head off and have a look at the state of the cylinder bore and the valve's and seats, daft question have you checked the valve clearances?
Thats about all the advice I can offer to you.

Jeremy

User avatar

XS650
Posts: 1969
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:22 pm
Real name: craig
Location: North Yorks
Has thanked: 153 times
Been thanked: 373 times
Flag: Great Britain

Re: Winget PH1 starting problem

Post #3 by XS650 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:10 pm

Willie-this might be usefull-
All the service / operators manuals old and new are on the Winget web site here-

http://www.winget.co.uk/UserGuide.aspx
Not all those who wander are lost.


essexpete
Posts: 4059
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:43 am
Real name: essexpete
Has thanked: 849 times
Been thanked: 680 times

Re: Winget PH1 starting problem

Post #4 by essexpete » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:31 pm

This may be obvious but are you opening the pump rack fully for the cold start position?


todd5
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:48 pm
Real name: john todd
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Winget PH1 starting problem

Post #5 by todd5 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:08 pm

have you bled the fuel through to get rid of airlocks? its very easy to do.


Topic author
willie.macleod
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:22 pm
Real name: Willie
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Winget PH1 starting problem

Post #6 by willie.macleod » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:32 pm

Hi all, thanks for the responses and welcome!

First, Jeremy no I haven't yet checked valve clearances, borrowed a set of feeler gauges from a mate tonight so will do that tomorrow as it is blowing a gale just now - however looking at the tiny rocker box I can well see why the manual wants you to faff around with bits of dowel and custom build a feeler! No compression test yet, if the valve clearances are OK then I will see if I can borrow a compression tester.

Thanks for the pointer towards the manuals, it is amazing that the manufacturer is still knocking around and still producing the same thing they were 30/40 years ago (no real idea how old mine is!) and providing the manuals FOC :thumbup:

Pump rack is fully open - little block swung up and rack slid towards back of engine as far as it will go. I'm pretty sure there are no airlocks as I can prime it on the pump lever and hear the injector creaking (manual says squeak, but mine is definitely a creak....) and when the injector was out and turned the other way with the pipework connected I was getting a good spray.

Will have another bash tomorrow and let you know how I get on after I've tried the above! Thanks all for your help.


Jeremy Rowland
Moderator
Posts: 8667
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:36 pm
Real name: Jeremy Rowland
Has thanked: 1867 times
Been thanked: 1688 times

Re: Winget PH1 starting problem

Post #7 by Jeremy Rowland » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:41 pm

Glad to be of assistance :thumbup: ; a creaking injector is spot on and shows that the fuel is in the injector and that it is working properly so you have no issues there.
Best of luck with it.

Jeremy


Julian
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 8:29 pm
Real name: Julian
Location: Warrington, UK
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Winget PH1 starting problem

Post #8 by Julian » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:57 pm

willie.macleod wrote:H Once the decompresser lever is dropped I'll normally get a small puff of black smoke out and the engine will stop within about half a turn (so it would seem that it has reasonable compression?). Does anyone have any words of advice about what to look at next?


Yes maybe, it sounds to me like you may be doing this slightly wrong: Spin it up, drop the decompressor and keep cranking - as hard as you can. If the engine is a bit worn you may need to crank through several compressions before it picks up enough to self sustain.

Two other tricks are:

1. chuck a bucketful of boiling water over the cylinder/cylinder head.
2, a whiff of easy-start

Julian.


Topic author
willie.macleod
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:22 pm
Real name: Willie
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Winget PH1 starting problem

Post #9 by willie.macleod » Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:22 pm

Bit of an update - Julian yes I was doing it wrong then, the engine is mounted quite far back and I was loosing the rhythm when reaching over to hit the decompresser and wasn't following through. Will bear in mind the boiling water tactic, I have had multiple warnings from others elsewhere about the use of easy start!

Valve clearances were off a little bit, set them as per manual to 0.1mm. Still no go so borrowed compression tester from nice man at local garage and found it was only making approx 200 psi. Books says it should be 535 psi. Pulled off head, found it was missing one nut - not surprisingly the head gasket was leaking around that area, so that (hopefully) explains low compression.

So I'm a little bit further forward - now my question is where is the best place to purchase replacement head nuts (one missing, one lost in the gravel and one damaged removing it...) and new head gasket and new rocker cover and rocker box gaskets? Any recommendations about who ships promptly cause I'm on holiday and want to get this running next week!


Julian
Posts: 481
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 8:29 pm
Real name: Julian
Location: Warrington, UK
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Winget PH1 starting problem

Post #10 by Julian » Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:16 pm

willie.macleod wrote:Bit of an update - Julian yes I was doing it wrong then, the engine is mounted quite far back and I was loosing the rhythm when reaching over to hit the decompresser and wasn't following through. Will bear in mind the boiling water tactic, I have had multiple warnings from others elsewhere about the use of easy start!

Valve clearances were off a little bit, set them as per manual to 0.1mm. Still no go so borrowed compression tester from nice man at local garage and found it was only making approx 200 psi. Books says it should be 535 psi. Pulled off head, found it was missing one nut - not surprisingly the head gasket was leaking around that area, so that (hopefully) explains low compression.

So I'm a little bit further forward - now my question is where is the best place to purchase replacement head nuts (one missing, one lost in the gravel and one damaged removing it...) and new head gasket and new rocker cover and rocker box gaskets? Any recommendations about who ships promptly cause I'm on holiday and want to get this running next week!


Just a few points:

1. people love to spout gobbledygook about easy-start. Mostly people repeating stuff that they've heard Joe saying down the pub - they have no experience per se. If an engine needs a whiff of ether to start then it is worn - it's worn because it's worn, not because of the ether!

2. Compression pressure of 535 sounds daft - would suggest a compression ratio of 36:1 which is unreal!

3. Nuts and gaskets. Not sure really, are they just grade 5 (or grade S) unf? Namrick (online) maybe. Head gaskets if copper composite will normally ''go again'' if you clean them up and spread a little grease on the surfaces. The other gaskets, DIY with gasket paper & RTV or maybe try John Lewis Dumpers as he tends to stock these things.

Julian.


Return to “Dumpers”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests