Hours On a machine - lets be realistic.

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newjcb123uk
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Hours On a machine - lets be realistic.

Post #1 by newjcb123uk » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:41 pm

As many of you know I specialise in restoration and selling classic plant - mainly excavators and backhoe loaders. Many people when inquiring ask how many hours is on the machine :x which sort of winds me up because if a machine is 20 plus years old its very unlikely that the hour clock is going to even work - and if it is its even more unlikely to show a true reading. :insomnia:

A brand new machine costing say £50k plus has to earn its keep so if its doing 8 hours a day or 12 hours a day you can expect any machine to read between 44 - 66 hours a week if worked a Saturday this works out to be around 176 - 264 hours a month. Now as we know the construction industry is not constant, machines are switched off for lunches, breakdowns, servicing, waiting between loads, holidays transportation, wet weather sometimes etc etc etc - so the hours on a machine cannot be calculated like a constant running generator or something. :think: So lets take a healthy average of 200 hours a month and do a 10 month year - that equates to an average yearly hour clock showing 2000 hours.

On average a brand new machine is worked for 3 good years before a possible replacement so in the first 3 years an average worked machine should have clocked around 6000 hours on the clock if the operator has got his value out of it. :thumbup:

The same machine after its 3 year work out then usually stands in a dealers yard or auction untill purchased for a second time - This standing time (could even be as much a 3 months) reduces the build up of hours further. The new customer of the 3 year old machine is probably a builder looking for a machine to help build only a handful of houses or even a contractor looking for a backup machine to support his brand new machines and isn't going to put the same type of hours on the machine previously experienced in the last 3 years of service. He has got a great machine tho as usually the first customer will have maintained his machine very well as part of a warrenty or service contract. :P

The 2nd customer of this machine is probably only going to put just less than half as many hours in this machine in it's next 3 years. So lets say after 6 years from new the machine has accumulated 8500 hours.

Now time for the 3rd customer - this is probably the unluckiest customer :cry: becuause This customer is buying a machine that looks to be quite good value on paper but some of the major mechanicals could be doing with an overhaul - things like chains, sprockets, rollers, slew ring, even aspects of the engine and hydraulic pump may need attention.

Saying this potential maintenance work gets done the 3rd customer may only hang on to this machine for a short time - a year or two - this short stay usually is a result of the owner getting fed up having to spend money on the digger :doh: - causing more down time than operating time and decides to move it on while the goings good or wants to look for something more reliable. The machines clock now shows 10000 hours and is 8 years old.

The 4th customer could turn into a 5th or even 6th customer very quickly by now as the machine has probably been bought at a "sold as seen" auction :twisted: due to the 3rd customers choice of getting rid of a potential comeback problem. The stand about time the machine experiences in this stage of its life will greatly reduce additional hours on the clock even if the digger ages another 2 years.

We now end up with a 10 year old machine with about 12000 genuine hours on the clock.

With all this in mind it is unrealistic when you see a machine advertised as 6 years old with only 2000 hours on the clock or even worse a 1988 Hymac 121 advertised with 3500 hours on the clock :roll: you know somebodys telling lies. With many machines I buy on condition as apposed to the hours on the clock. The bum on the seat over the years has determined weather or not the machine has had a hard paper round or has been respected by its operators who have had the sence to do a bit of essential routine daily/weekly maintenance. :rockon:

I've seen machines with low hours but fit for the scap heap but equally seen old machines with high hours but have been lovingly maintained. It's swings and roundabouts but always always if it looks too good to be true it always is - common sence is essential. :thumbup:
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Re: Hours On a machine - lets be realistic.

Post #2 by Jeremy Rowland » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:21 pm

Its no different than the motor trade Chris quote "one careful lady owner" quote "one owner from new (Nigel Mansell)" quote "a fine example" quote "only 20,000 miles from new" :lol:

As a motorcycle enthusiast I can plainly recall watching an immaculate Kawasaki Z550 being abused by its owner at the local bike meet and a few months latter seeing the exact same machine forsale in a local bike shop with the following quote "a well cared for example of this machine" :lol: yep me and my mate were laughing cos we knew it had been wheelied and generally abused, okay so it did look immaculate but the best advice to anybody when buying any type of machinery or equipment is;
1) Use your eyes
2) Use your brain
3) Ask questions
4) Take a mate
5) The golden rule; if your not happy with what you see then walk away.

Jeremy


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Re: Hours On a machine - lets be realistic.

Post #3 by martyn williams » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:16 pm

Yes,Jeremy is right and I would say an average of 2000 hours per year is a fair guide.But using your ears and eyes and take a good look at a machine,also try it out and run it up to working temperature.You can't rely on its service record,having seen some machines that have been looked after and maintained but a dealer,some of the people that are employed by the dealerships are not that good these days.Also companies that ISO 9002 etc means that they keep good paperwork but the work they do may be poor.
Was shown an inspection sheet from a well known dealership for a machine under warranty. Its faults that were listed seemed to be minor,but when you looked closely,those faults could cause downtime on a job.It was a simple fix,could be sorted in a couple of hours by the person who noted the faults. But that purson just recorded the faults to be done eventually.
Customer service :dizzy:
Same goes for cars,these new cars are stored at Avonmouth, Bristol for many months out in the open.Then sold as new.
Martyn
The things I am working on now have run up 50,000 hours without a major overhaul of the power unit.Running 5,000 miles per month on average.

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Re: Hours On a machine - lets be realistic.

Post #4 by si25 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:35 pm

interesting points above but i think, especially regarding machines, the nature of work they have done has a major impact of condition. take a hard rock or demolition spec 20 - 30 tonner, after a few years work it will show it a lot sooner than a muck shifting equivalent. showing the hours worked, and seeing or having recorded service history is good but a thorough inspection will never lie.
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Re: Hours On a machine - lets be realistic.

Post #5 by newjcb123uk » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:53 pm

si25 wrote:interesting points above but i think, especially regarding machines, the nature of work they have done has a major impact of condition. take a hard rock or demolition spec 20 - 30 tonner, after a few years work it will show it a lot sooner than a muck shifting equivalent. showing the hours worked, and seeing or having recorded service history is good but a thorough inspection will never lie.


The nature of the work is never obvious unless you are actually buying the machine directly from a quarry or the like and most sales persons would be very relutant to disclose the exact nature that the machine has been enduring from day to day for obvious sales pitch reasons :ugeek: . Everyone buys on condition - we don't buy bruised bannanas even if they are only a day old on the shelf :shifty: but the hours on the clock give a realistic factual indication that should help tally up with the visual and mechanical condition. Try before you by is always a fair thing to do.

Simon, Your point about a machine having a more difficult task to do, like demolition than say a muck shifting equivilent is usually rule of thumb - UNLESS - the operator/owner of the muckshifting equivilent machine has been a dead-loss when it comes to driving skills or routine maintenance.

Thanks for your comments :thumbup:
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Re: Hours On a machine - lets be realistic.

Post #6 by Hammer man » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:40 am

Well,my Hitachi ZX350 :bow: :( has now gone to its second home,with just over 10000 hrs on it,at 6 yrs old.During my few years with it,i put around 1700 hrs a year on it,doing a 7-5 day,with some saturday work.And my time with it was all quarry work,80 odd % hammering,20% bucket work in the quarrys.But as you know & seen from the pics,i looked after it.Ok,so it needed a bit of tlc to the pumps & track rollers,but if i had £56k,i would have been tempted.
Our ZX850 was sold in 2006 to a scrap merchant who apperently painted it green,removed the stick & fitted a scrap shear to work in a yard.
Most of our front line machines that i`ve been on from time to time have average around 2000 hrs a year.I keep ALL my old time sheet books,so i can see how many hours they do. :)
2004 Hit ZX350,9556 hrs
2007 ZX350/3,6000 hrs,now with just over 10000 hrs!!!


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Re: Hours On a machine - lets be realistic.

Post #7 by Joes1989 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:37 pm

My old cat had 6700 odd hours on it when it went the first week in march! I put around 1200 hours on it! We've just got rid of a Komatsu PC180 that will have done over 9000 hours in the 6/7 years it was in service!


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Re: Hours On a machine - lets be realistic.

Post #8 by jz145 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:50 pm

I once used a Cat 312C, 2005 machine, with around 9000 hours on it. It had a virtually brand new undercarridge, but had problems with a leaking slew motor i beleive, used to leak quite abit of oil over the front and back of the X Frame.


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