carnage 3ciii

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MrF
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carnage 3ciii

Post #1 by MrF » Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:30 pm

Well i finally managed to find a minute to take a look at my old 3c.
I got the go ahead to buy what it needs to work properly so tore into the motor, as all has not been well for a while.

Pictorial record :-
3 hrs with a steamer and its yellow!
Image

Rad top tanks not too clever either, some brazing to seal it back up, could do with a top tank but havent got funds to justify...
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Ingenious use of wood for core plug or horrible botch, you decide (the latter for me)
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Belt shredded, surprise...
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I had a idea the exhaust was past its best...
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Thatll be at least one of the water leaks though :-
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Time to open it up after peeking round the edges.
Oil changes, previous owners have heard of them, in theory.
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Uh oh, somethings not right here
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Rocker arms are past their best, to put it mildly
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Bent pushrod too, wonder whats caused that.
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Head gaskets been blowing, by the amount of carbon on the faces. But yea gods , it has four pistons and the wear ridges aren't too bad!
Image

Given the relative health of the liners and pistons, Im going to stop there. I think the rad pressuring can be laid at the feet of the head gasket (maybe previous recent rebuilder didnt torque it hot or something).

Plan now, buy a new gasket set, throw everything in the parts cleaner till its spotless including the spray bar orifices and buy some hardox rods and build up the rocker arms with weld and grind them back to profile (because I can do that myself in the workshop). The bent pushrod Im not sure of, I emailed peatland about replacements and tried to call them but no reply, and I cant find anyone who even lists replacement pushrods. I only need one, but I can always try bumping it true in the lathe.
I also need to find a way of measuring valve spring rate and what the spring rate should be, as they feel awfully weak although Im used to working on high revving motorcycle engines. But I can push the valves open with a thumb which doesnt feel especially right to me. But maybe it is, theres no kiss marks in the carbon on the piston from a valve head so nothing has been making contact to indicate over weak springs.

When its all back together, if its still running badly it has to be something ingested into the injection pump. At which point I may order one of these, and see if I can remember what the inside of one looked like from waaaay back in my late teens where I did some training on a rebuild and injection phasing bench. I know I can send it out and pay £500 and have it right, but the old girl doesnt really justify it sadly.
http://store.dieselcare.net/dparekitforl.html

And I need some more 48hr days...


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Re: carnage 3ciii

Post #2 by MrF » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:13 pm

An actual update, Im not giving up on this old girl that easy ;)

Engine now rebuilt, just have to set the tappets and fire her up, but *not* rushing to meet any deadline just working slowly and carefully.
I cast welded the broken head casting up, and machined it flat, but a replacement appeared at exactly the correct time and the seller threw some straight pushrods etc in that I needed so I changed it out, also a new set of rockers, albeit with a few of them through their case hardening too.
I built up the best of the needing work rocker pads with some specially ordered soudsteel hardfacing rods designed for the job, and built a small jig to grind them to profile afterwards, and I ended up having to buy in special grinding wheels for the rig because it was HARD!
New fanbelt, can see why nobody else ever changed it, what a pain to get the spider flange bolts out from above, I ended up lying underneath because the shaft angles up towards the pump and it gives a better access from underneath, and then when you go to put it back, its orientated and will only bolt up one way.
Welded up battery carrier, replaced the silencer with one from a van we had spare with a bit of adaption, new nylon fuel lines with new olives etc.

The injection pump I removed, and made a little setup with four test tubes connected to the outputs, and span it for a period of time, in the manner a real phasing rig works. two tubes had almost no fluid in them, so it almost certainly had injested a particle which caused mayhem inside. A replacement pump was sourced and checked and found to be even on my heath robinson setup, so its gone back on.

Im doing my brakes now too, heres a couple of pics from the stripdown. They were heavily corroded inside, but nothing really seized. I ended up making a steel bracket to fish the clutch packs out as they were sticking on the splines as they came out making life awkward.
Tonight Im cleaning up the last of the corrosion off with a patent method of sticking some wetndry used wet and rough side up to a old scrap surfaceplate (its flat enough for this job) and lapping the corroded steel flakes from the asbestos braking surfaces flat on the discs (wet so the air isnt full of asbestos particles), and lapping the cast iron surfaces on a piece of glass plate with grinding paste on, and checking it by bluing up and trying it on another plate. Long process but it will be right and not cost anything.

Its never going to be a show queen because its covered in scars and welds from years of work, but it IS going back to being in good working order. I think the scars tell its story better than some overperfect restoration anyway...
Floor plates out, as always :-
brakes_in_place.jpg


Then fish out the innards for inspection, look quite corroded but saveable.
brake_parts.jpg


Just have to clean it all, grease it up well with hmp on the splines and inside the expander and it should stop like a good un.

Two other bits of good news, the cab is a heavy duty roll over one, and quite saveable I think so that'll be on the agenda once the engine is running sweetly. Although Its missing each and every piece of glass, Ill worry about that once its solid. And finally the only thing wrong with my handbrake is the button which engages the pawl is missing.

Im laying a workshop floor mid april as I just booked the concrete delivery day off at work, and all my machines will be coming home once the floor has gone off properly, so that will finally mean I can make up new bosses and bushes for the back acter on the lathe. Its all looking better and we can test the old girl out digging for our septic tank system and demolishing a outbuilding.

Must be the slowest rebuild ever ;)
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martyn williams
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Re: carnage 3ciii

Post #3 by martyn williams » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:30 pm

I am sure you will have the old girl up and running good given a bit of time.Please keep us posted on your progress.Good luck with it :thumbup:
Martyn

PS There is a new silencer on Ebay.


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Re: carnage 3ciii

Post #4 by diggerjones » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:28 pm

great up date. i run a 1986 back-hoe and it must still be on the orginal fan belt. think on machines like diggers and dumpers when they leave the factory they put a extra fan belt over the pump shaft, mines still there zip tied up. at the weekend i changned the one on my 5 tonne dumper it also had the spare on it so it took about 20 mins. heres a pic of them.
IMG_1253.JPG
IMG_1683.JPG
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Re: carnage 3ciii

Post #5 by Mark.Rive » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:31 pm

Very nice update on your work so far MrF. Thanks very much, it gives the rest of us an insentive to carry on too. :thumbup: Mark


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Re: carnage 3ciii

Post #6 by essexpete » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:38 pm

I like the look of the Moxy Dylan (sorry about going off topic). Perhaps you could tell us a little about it on another thread?


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Re: carnage 3ciii

Post #7 by TEZB » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:40 pm

I like your method's MrF, I have just done the same thing with my 3c brake's spent a few hour's rubbing the surface's down and having the disc's relined, well worth it. If you want any advice on the Leyland part of the digger try Peatland export part's the Leyland/Nuffield tractor message board, they are alway's willing to help


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Re: carnage 3ciii

Post #8 by diggerjones » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:46 pm

pete, think i have spoke about it on here before. anyway its 1986 4x4 touque converter exstender arm and 4 in 1. 2nd owner from new. perkins engine, same as 3cx. fai built in italy. great machine, strange thing about the back end is you can undo 2 bolts and 2 pipes and take the back end off. i have never tried doing this, its classed as a tractor on the docs. suppose its a tractor with a front loader on with the bac actor taken off.


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Re: carnage 3ciii

Post #9 by MrF » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:44 am

Nearly there, dropped sump bash plate, decided that perhaps 4 odd sized coach bolts weren't original so ordered some new fasteners of the correct dimensions, new oil + oil filter on, all the diesel lines and pump bled up and no bubbles in the return, managed to solder up the top tank neck with a air/butane torch without destroying the core->top tank relationship, after it was found weeping under pressure, and then covered over the top of the solder with a bead of araldite for belt and braces and its holding 5psi without bubbling, so that should be enough. I cant afford a radiator rebuild with a new top tank yet.

Load more small bits and bobs around the cab, got the rh floor plate back in and the accelerator hooked back up but notice the pedal return spring is broke so will have to source one. Cant get the steering wheel off, because I don't have an appropriate sized socket yet, but will purchase next shopping trip. I want to get the dash off because the wiring is a mess and I want to sort it once and for all and make the tacho and legal minimum of lights work in anticipation of some road work to our other house for some bits and bobs when its safe.
Also have a new engine stop cable to replace the piece of electrical wire fed into the cab fitted by PO. The cable clamp section is mia so will have to make a new one.

Now to out how the bottom hose is supposed to go on. Both stubs on the engine and rad side are quite long and point straight at each other with about a 2" gap between, but the new hose is the same length as the old one so its not a case of a different sized part. So for the hose to go on both, either the rad has to go forward (which it can't because its located in two large steel U sections which appear to be part of the chassis), or the engine has to go backwards...
Im missing something obvious here aren't I? please, someone tell me I am... Ill look at it with fresh eyes tomorrow and will slap myself something will be so obvious.

Another thing confusing me is where the cables for the "cold start" choke knobs connect on the injection pump. Does it have some kind of cold start enrichment facility? I know about the start pilote pump, but this is above the wheel and looks very factory and the knob itself has the legend "cold start" graved onto it. The other end of the cable terminates in the engine bay near the pump with no likely looking candidates for its proper home...

Martin, the exhaust really isnt that bad, so Im inclined to turn a blind eye to a new one until I can get a visitor to bring one over with them to save on postage :)

Digger: the 3c is the same sort of thing as Im sure you know, a tractor with some bits bolted on front and rear. I seen a drott once that was wearing the back acter from a 3ciii, it looked mighty useful...

2am best get some sleep :)


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Re: carnage 3ciii

Post #10 by MrF » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:19 am

If anyone gets to the same stumbling block, in the end I had to take the radiator back off, the alternator and the fan shroud and belt. Once the alternator is off, the engine side of the stub has some movement because its held by the alternator bottom mounting and you can just get it all into place. Slackening off the link hose to the waterpump proper which is hidden by the alternator mounting if needs be.
The radiator mounting U channels do unbolt from the chassis, but I had no luck getting the fasteners undone so did the above instead. Another nights work just getting the bottom hose on...

This may have been made more frustrating by the fact that Im almost sure it has the wrong rad on it, since the cutaway for the rad hose is now about 2" lower than the bottom radiator hose spigot. Perhaps its possible to bolt the radiator in too high although it looks like the top tank should be level with the U channels.

I now have only to do the valve clearances and its good to fire back up. Nervously... I bet it still blows really cool smoke rings at tickover even after all this :)


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